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Massive Chalice and same sex couples
Posted: 04 June 2013 04:16 PM
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Yeah, forget that the RPG Codex is the largest cRPG website in the internet, the best source for info & debate on cRPGs, that many developers read and post there, some even host their entire forums with them, and that, by the way, Massive Chalice is an RPG. No, they find gay mechanics ridiculous, so they are simply “a massively homophobic forum” that only spawn trolls, homophobics and evil…

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:20 PM
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Umm… RPG Codex is pretty well known to be full of trolls. Whether they are homophobes or not, I can’t say. If they can’t see the interesting gameplay mechanics this could lead to though, that’s their loss.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:26 PM
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So anyway guys, to get back to stuff that’s actually interesting, there’s an interesting discussion going on right now about whether it would be better for characters to just be able to get into whatever couple, or if they should have a random orientation which is actually built in.

I can sort of see the argument for both. The first one gives the player more strategic clout, because they can just make whatever pairings help them out the most, and the second one could result in some interesting random happenstance type storytelling which is cool in games like these.

I think I still fall in favour of the first option though, for a couple more reasons. First, it’s completely neutral - they don’t need to build any extra mechanics in to make it work, they just make it so any pair can be a couple and that’s pretty much it. But second, it would be a bit weird to have a situation where I’m disappointed my best knight is gay because I wanted to use his bloodline for having knight babies xD So I’d rather the ability to pick ‘n’ choose.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:32 PM
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Hey guys,

Let’s keep this civil. This is a game that is in pre-production and whose design will remain under iteration and improvement for some time to come, as is the case with any game being revealed early in its development.

We intend for MASSIVE CHALICE to be inclusive in a way that is genuinely additive to the game design and to the game experience, not as lip service or pandering. To that end, the topic of same-sex relationships in the game will necessarily be subject to a lot of discussion internally.

Anything we add will not be out of a desire to arbitrarily please a minority. Anything we add will be out of a desire to make the game we want to play, as informed by our community, and that’s the entire point of doing this game without a publisher. If we had a traditional publishing partner, there’s a good chance this kind of discussion would be off the table entirely, regardless of our own feelings on the matter.

It is clear that this is a subject about which many people feel very strongly, one way or the other. And discussion is great! However, this thread is becoming venomous, and if we have to start banning people from certain subforums, we will. Intentional agitation will not be tolerated. Consider this fair warning.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:47 PM
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DF Chris Remo - 04 June 2013 04:32 PM

Anything we add will not be out of a desire to arbitrarily please a minority. Anything we add will be out of a desire to make the game we want to play, as informed by our community

I hope so, and that if anything my discussion here provides a counter-weight to what vocal minorities may make look like a “strongly demanded feature”, and the game doesn’t end as a pot pourri of community ideas that don’t make sense together.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 04:53 PM
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felipepepe - 04 June 2013 04:16 PM

Yeah, forget that the RPG Codex is the largest cRPG website in the internet, the best source for info & debate on cRPGs, that many developers read and post there, some even host their entire forums with them, and that, by the way, Massive Chalice is an RPG. No, they find gay mechanics ridiculous, so they are simply “a massively homophobic forum” that only spawn trolls, homophobics and evil…

I wasn’t aware we had to pick one or the other.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:00 PM
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felipepepe - 04 June 2013 04:47 PM
DF Chris Remo - 04 June 2013 04:32 PM

Anything we add will not be out of a desire to arbitrarily please a minority. Anything we add will be out of a desire to make the game we want to play, as informed by our community

I hope so, and that if anything my discussion here provides a counter-weight to what vocal minorities may make look like a “strongly demanded feature”, and the game doesn’t end as a pot pourri of community ideas that don’t make sense together.

Just so we’re clear. You do mean vocal minority as in: “The minority that is vocal about a subject” as in a part from the majority that remains silent about it. and not a minority group that is vocal about a particular side of the subject right?

To clarify further, you’re a vocal minority on this subject too, because you’re being vocal about it, but you are the minority of vocal responders to the subject, so if this were a democratic process (and it isn’t and shouldn’t be) than your wishes would be ignored for the majority of vocal parties in favor of the inclusion of same-sex pairings in the game.

[ Edited: 04 June 2013 05:02 PM by Scarecrow ]
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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:26 PM
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On the topic of ‘Sexual Orientation or Neutral’

I feel I prefer a system whereby your heroes do have a randomly allocated orientation. However, you should be pretty much free to pair them as you wish - it just may not work out for the best!

Your hero will be oriented either homosexually or hetrosexually. You can pair them how you want, but there will be issues to contend with.

Imagine you have an awesome knight with great physical characteristics and you want them to give you children. But oh wait, he’s gay!

You could still pair him up with a lady-knight and tell them to have children. But he will be unhappy in the relationship, which will negatively affect both his and his spouse’s ‘emotional’ characteristics. I don’t know exactly what these impacts would be in the game, but the idea is simulating a forced marriage where there is not just no love, but the couple are just not ‘compatible’ in bed - he has no interest in the child-making process! I cannot relate personally, but I feel thy)at this is probably pretty detrimental to an individual’s emotional wellbeing.

Another system would be having it on a sliding scale. A hero may be 100% straight, which would mean they absolutely would refuse to be married to another man. The mere idea makes him threaten to leave. Your hero could instead by 80%, and in this instance while he will be pretty unhappy, he will bear it. He could be 40% (or 60% gay), in which case he will be slightly unhappy in a straight relationship but he holds out ok. Etc etc - the degree to which he is married against his orientation determines how much negative (or positive) impact it has.

Finally, it may be possible that heroes and heroines ‘cheat’. You could have your two heroines married together, but one of them may be straight. There could be a chance that they will go off for some ‘fun’ elsewhere more in line with her preference, and you could accidentally end up with a pregnant heroine (with a commoner, no less!) which you were not at all expecting or prepared for. And don’t expect the marriage to be particularly harmonious after that, either!

TL;DR The core idea is that while a hero/heroine has a predetermined orientation (its not a choice), you can pair them off in a marriage of convenience, but you must be careful as an unhappy marriage against the individual’s orientation will have negative impacts.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:29 PM
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Honestly, we should just convert the bloodline idea into hardware and software generations, and move this game from the feudal fantasy to a land filled with robots like Futurama. Then we can all be asexual robots, and toasters, and roombas. And the robots should mostly be powered by beer.


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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:34 PM
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bills6693 - 04 June 2013 05:26 PM

On the topic of ‘Sexual Orientation or Neutral’

I feel I prefer a system whereby your heroes do have a randomly allocated orientation. However, you should be pretty much free to pair them as you wish - it just may not work out for the best!

Your hero will be oriented either homosexually or hetrosexually. You can pair them how you want, but there will be issues to contend with.

Imagine you have an awesome knight with great physical characteristics and you want them to give you children. But oh wait, he’s gay!

You could still pair him up with a lady-knight and tell them to have children. But he will be unhappy in the relationship, which will negatively affect both his and his spouse’s ‘emotional’ characteristics. I don’t know exactly what these impacts would be in the game, but the idea is simulating a forced marriage where there is not just no love, but the couple are just not ‘compatible’ in bed - he has no interest in the child-making process! I cannot relate personally, but I feel thy)at this is probably pretty detrimental to an individual’s emotional wellbeing.

Another system would be having it on a sliding scale. A hero may be 100% straight, which would mean they absolutely would refuse to be married to another man. The mere idea makes him threaten to leave. Your hero could instead by 80%, and in this instance while he will be pretty unhappy, he will bear it. He could be 40% (or 60% gay), in which case he will be slightly unhappy in a straight relationship but he holds out ok. Etc etc - the degree to which he is married against his orientation determines how much negative (or positive) impact it has.

Finally, it may be possible that heroes and heroines ‘cheat’. You could have your two heroines married together, but one of them may be straight. There could be a chance that they will go off for some ‘fun’ elsewhere more in line with her preference, and you could accidentally end up with a pregnant heroine (with a commoner, no less!) which you were not at all expecting or prepared for. And don’t expect the marriage to be particularly harmonious after that, either!

TL;DR The core idea is that while a hero/heroine has a predetermined orientation (its not a choice), you can pair them off in a marriage of convenience, but you must be careful as an unhappy marriage against the individual’s orientation will have negative impacts.

I like this. I think the sliding scale is the most inclusive and realistic but it may be an overly complex treatment of an aspect of one portion of the overall game, but that’s a decision the team will make. I do think it’s best to leave this kind of stuff in the background. I don’t see the need to make a big deal out of it by having the warriors advertise their orientation. I rather enjoyed Jane’s take on why this is a good idea, since it encourages the player to experiment with pairings to find which ones satisfy your heroes the most.

[ Edited: 04 June 2013 05:41 PM by Scarecrow ]
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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:39 PM
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bills6693 - 04 June 2013 05:26 PM

On the topic of ‘Sexual Orientation or Neutral’

I feel I prefer a system whereby your heroes do have a randomly allocated orientation. However, you should be pretty much free to pair them as you wish - it just may not work out for the best!

Your hero will be oriented either homosexually or hetrosexually. You can pair them how you want, but there will be issues to contend with.

Imagine you have an awesome knight with great physical characteristics and you want them to give you children. But oh wait, he’s gay!

You could still pair him up with a lady-knight and tell them to have children. But he will be unhappy in the relationship, which will negatively affect both his and his spouse’s ‘emotional’ characteristics. I don’t know exactly what these impacts would be in the game, but the idea is simulating a forced marriage where there is not just no love, but the couple are just not ‘compatible’ in bed - he has no interest in the child-making process! I cannot relate personally, but I feel thy)at this is probably pretty detrimental to an individual’s emotional wellbeing.

Another system would be having it on a sliding scale. A hero may be 100% straight, which would mean they absolutely would refuse to be married to another man. The mere idea makes him threaten to leave. Your hero could instead by 80%, and in this instance while he will be pretty unhappy, he will bear it. He could be 40% (or 60% gay), in which case he will be slightly unhappy in a straight relationship but he holds out ok. Etc etc - the degree to which he is married against his orientation determines how much negative (or positive) impact it has.

Finally, it may be possible that heroes and heroines ‘cheat’. You could have your two heroines married together, but one of them may be straight. There could be a chance that they will go off for some ‘fun’ elsewhere more in line with her preference, and you could accidentally end up with a pregnant heroine (with a commoner, no less!) which you were not at all expecting or prepared for. And don’t expect the marriage to be particularly harmonious after that, either!

TL;DR The core idea is that while a hero/heroine has a predetermined orientation (its not a choice), you can pair them off in a marriage of convenience, but you must be careful as an unhappy marriage against the individual’s orientation will have negative impacts.

I’ll have to mull this over some more, but I have to say, consider that under that system it could work both ways: the idea that it might be strategically advantageous to arrange a forced same-sex marriage between two straight guys tickles my funny bone. Man, there have been plenty of gay people in unhappy straight marriages in history, but hah…

It might feel a bit too arbitrary and overcomplicated though. People have their own orientations, you as king decide what how you want them to pair up and then there’s an underlying system which calculates bonuses, penalties… it feels a little messy, a little busy if you know what I mean? It might seem like over-egging the pudding, especially when the goal isn’t really to make a relationship simulator, as it’s been mentioned earlier.

I think that’s why I favour the option where sexuality isn’t even a thing that’s explicitly brought up. You just match couples in any combo, and the couples have choices about what they do with their married life. On the other hand, maybe there’s a way of doing it your way that is actually really elegant and doesn’t feel like it’s getting in the way.

[ Edited: 04 June 2013 05:44 PM by KestrelPi ]
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Posted: 04 June 2013 05:57 PM
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SurplusGamer - 04 June 2013 05:39 PM

I think that’s why I favour the option where sexuality isn’t even a thing that’s explicitly brought up. You just match couples in any combo, and the couples have choices about what they do with their married life.

I think I’d prefer it this way as well.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 06:01 PM
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I think that anyone can raise the offspring.  Say you want the mother to get back to battle…the offspring will have the bloodline but have influence if you so chose to give the baby 2 fathers.  Nature and Nurture.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 06:08 PM
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I’m personally opposed to the idea of locked in orientations.

2 reasons.
So I backed this project and up’ed my pledge so I’d be able to name my own bloodline and whatnot.
I don’t really want to come across my bloodline and then find out that the main hero isn’t straight.
And seeing that sexual orientation is defined by your genetics and choice in real life, assigning someone an orientation in game really trivialises it in my opinion.
It’s not a homophobia thing, some of my closest friends are gay. It’s just a personal preference.

Part of my reasoning is that if it takes the programmers x amount of time and resources to add a component, how much is that contributing to the game, gameplay wise? Is it actually making the game deeper and more fun or is it just being included for the sake of pleasing a demographic?
I’m fine with the implementation if it adds something to the game. But if something else was sacrificed for a mechanic that doesn’t really work then yeah, not cool.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 06:24 PM
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flaxans - 04 June 2013 06:08 PM

I’m personally opposed to the idea of locked in orientations.

2 reasons.
So I backed this project and up’ed my pledge so I’d be able to name my own bloodline and whatnot.
I don’t really want to come across my bloodline and then find out that the main hero isn’t straight.
And seeing that sexual orientation is defined by your genetics and choice in real life, assigning someone an orientation in game really trivialises it in my opinion.
It’s not a homophobia thing, some of my closest friends are gay. It’s just a personal preference.

Part of my reasoning is that if it takes the programmers x amount of time and resources to add a component, how much is that contributing to the game, gameplay wise? Is it actually making the game deeper and more fun or is it just being included for the sake of pleasing a demographic?
I’m fine with the implementation if it adds something to the game. But if something else was sacrificed for a mechanic that doesn’t really work then yeah, not cool.

Actually, the idea Jane had sounded pretty awesome for the gameplay. There should be some elements randomness to plan for since they did say they were inspired by roguelikes. You also don’t have a “main” hero in the game from what I understand.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 06:26 PM
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Well, I’d say it doesn’t even need to be that complex. I’ll go backwards and explain a little on the emotional/moral reasoning behind the system, and I hope not to step on many toes.

Basically, as I see it, the reason for any system including homosexual relationships is there to bring a little ‘realism’ in terms of not just ignoring the issues. I was following the first two or three pages of this tread, and read about how basically, hetrosexual relationships are just assumed, and that adding homosexual ones in as at least an option here rather than avoiding the issue would help, in its own small way, to improve awareness and acceptance and not just shut it out. This is also the reason to not just have this as something you can ‘turn off’.

Well, this links to having a determined orientation in several ways: (although I outline them in points, they flow and link together)

1) If everything is neutral, many people will simply only ever pair them off in a hetrosexual way. It may be that homosexual pairings never even cross their mind, they may not think it even possible or just not think of it. This is simply another form of ‘avoiding’.
2) If there are no ‘consequences’ for this, it could very subtly and slightly, reinforce the idea that it isn’t an important issue and that in real life, there are no consequences.
3) As has been said, gay people have had to endure, unhappily, straight relationships. This is an issue which should be brought up, and shown to the player - if someone is gay, they cannot simply choose to be straight and be happy with it. This, I feel, is one of the major issues within equality and acceptance. I have said this isn’t an issue I can directly relate to, but I talk with my friends sometimes about gay equality etc (especially when its on the news etc), and that it is a choice and that gay people should just stop doing it is something that friends of mine, who are really nice people, genuinely say and think.

I don’t want this game to be shouting out about this, it shouldn’t be there to champion gay rights or equality, etc. But it should show consequences and unhappiness in a small way. It is by these little things, these little hints that through familiarity become ingrained in the way people see the world. Its not you seeing something on a big flashy billboard, its you hearing something in a conversation you overhear slightly, without noticing. It still sinks in, and you don’t go into it with a pre-formed opinion, and thus defend them-self from it (sorry, I am a psychology student at university raspberry)


On the subject of subtlety, I don’t think this needs to be a big feature. I think a simple orientation indicator as part of the hero stats is shown, just like you might see gender, strengh, agility, age etc etc. It shouldn’t stick out, it’s just a fact on their profile sheet.

When you go into the screen or box or whatever you use for setting up marriages, it should show you the gender, age and orientation of the individuals - again its just a stat to consider in the relationship. And when forming a relationship against the orientations of the heroes, it might pop up with a little notification or a red exclamation mark or tooltip just informing you that it will make the heroes unhappy. It doesn’t need to be intrusive, it could just be a single line or few words just below the ‘Marry’ button.

And then, the impact should just be built into whatever existing stats and mechanics there are. I don’t know what they will be, what will be in game, but it should just integrate in with whatever other factors have affects on characters. Perhaps there will be ‘traits’ like you get in the Total War series - it could be shown here (unhappy forced relationship, or a far better sounding title).

That is how I see it integrated, subtly, into the game. I don’t want it a major feature, it should just be a little thing, and treated just the same as all the other factors in the game. Nothing special, not ignored. Just another thing.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 06:38 PM
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The answer’s been staring us in the face all along guys:

junior_1994.jpg

Seriously though, I’d love it if one member of any gay couple could get pregnant regardless of whether they’re female or not, and absolutely nobody ever questions it. If it’s good enough for Arnold, it’s good enough for Double Fine, right?

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Posted: 04 June 2013 07:04 PM
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Bookdust - 04 June 2013 05:00 PM

Just so we’re clear. You do mean vocal minority as in: “The minority that is vocal about a subject” as in a part from the majority that remains silent about it. and not a minority group that is vocal about a particular side of the subject right?

To clarify further, you’re a vocal minority on this subject too, because you’re being vocal about it, but you are the minority of vocal responders to the subject, so if this were a democratic process (and it isn’t and shouldn’t be) than your wishes would be ignored for the majority of vocal parties in favor of the inclusion of same-sex pairings in the game.

Yes, as you said I’m clearly the minority in this thread. But a thread like this has what, 50 posters? So far the game has 21.000 backers, so it’s quite safe to say that even if we were unanimous here, in no way it would represent the desires of the entire community, just a minor vocal group. It’s not rare to see development choices being made on top of a very small sample, especially if it appears to be unanimous. I hope that Brad is not that naive, but since there’s my money on this as well, I’d rather play safe.

I wound’t cancel my pledge just because gays are in or something like that, but since so far all we got is that almost empty kickstarter page, this INCLUSION talk triggers warning signs in me.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 07:16 PM
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bills6693 - 04 June 2013 06:26 PM

1) If everything is neutral, many people will simply only ever pair them off in a hetrosexual way. It may be that homosexual pairings never even cross their mind, they may not think it even possible or just not think of it. This is simply another form of ‘avoiding’.
2) If there are no ‘consequences’ for this, it could very subtly and slightly, reinforce the idea that it isn’t an important issue and that in real life, there are no consequences.
3) As has been said, gay people have had to endure, unhappily, straight relationships. This is an issue which should be brought up, and shown to the player - if someone is gay, they cannot simply choose to be straight and be happy with it. This, I feel, is one of the major issues within equality and acceptance. I have said this isn’t an issue I can directly relate to, but I talk with my friends sometimes about gay equality etc (especially when its on the news etc), and that it is a choice and that gay people should just stop doing it is something that friends of mine, who are really nice people, genuinely say and think.

I don’t want this game to be shouting out about this, it shouldn’t be there to champion gay rights or equality, etc. But it should show consequences and unhappiness in a small way. It is by these little things, these little hints that through familiarity become ingrained in the way people see the world. Its not you seeing something on a big flashy billboard, its you hearing something in a conversation you overhear slightly, without noticing. It still sinks in, and you don’t go into it with a pre-formed opinion, and thus defend them-self from it (sorry, I am a psychology student at university raspberry)

eeeeeeeeeeeeehh I’m starting to see where some of the other people in this thread are coming from. First of all, I am 100% for gay relationships in the game and for not providing a “remove all potentially gay pairings from my view” button in the menu. I will almost certainly make some of my couples gay if I can. But… I don’t think it’s the game’s job to prevent “avoiding” in the sense you’re talking about. Making gay pairings first class citizens in the user interface is what I would consider a good way of presenting homosexuality as equal and okay. Making orientations predetermined crosses the line into pushing an agenda, I think.

So why do I think this? It’s not because I have any problems with encountering gay characters. It’s because I want to define the personalities of my soldiers myself. I’m assuming the soldiers will be basically blank slates that will spout maybe 10 different canned lines. I want my character sheets to be mine to fill out, and to not have a category scribbled in before I get there. I want to build little stories for these characters in my mind. So if the little stories I’m making up in my mind say that Bob loves Steve, then I will be super bummed out when this generic character with no personality suddenly grows his own opinions and says “Nah, bro, I’m actually straight.”

Now, if these characters will have unique, original personalities then I have no problem with predetermined orientations. If the character sheet is already filled out, then I’ll be like “cool, tell me a story.” In Fire Emblem Awakening one of the characters is simply too shy to talk to some guy, and therefore she can never marry him no matter what I want her to do. I’m okay with this because she is a distinct character with her own ideas. Do you get where I’m coming from?

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Posted: 04 June 2013 07:33 PM
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I guess myself, I was thinking of more of a relationship balance kind of thing too. I know it isn’t a ‘relationship simulator’ but I was thinking that you should have to take factors into account and relationships have conequences - thinks like age as well as sexual orientation.

I also had the idea of pre-filled out character sheets, rather than a blank slate - that these people start out with a story, and then you grow them furthur. But they already have a personality, traits and qualities.

I don’t want to push this as some agenda, I think I have probably ‘over-explained’ what I was thinking and made it sound far more complicated. I don’t want this to be a stand-out feature or anything.

I just feel that if such a thing were included in the game, it shouldn’t just be that you are able to do it with no impact on the gameplay. There should be some reason that you would set up a marriage as a straight or gay one.

We can either look at it as a ‘straight couples are better at X, gay couples are better at Y’. But I didn’t think this was a particularly, well, fair or reflective way of doing it. And as it stands, the reason to retire your heroes from battle and settle down is to have children, which is an automatic reason to have a straight couple. What is the ‘reason’ to have a gay couple?

Thus, the reason to have such a couple it because there are gay people. You can have a straight relationship to create offspring, or you can have them in a gay relationship for happiness. I feel this is both fairer and non-stereotyping, and also that it is just a small situation forcing choice. And I feel these kinds of choices are what this game is aiming for - you balance if you keep your hero in battle or retire them. You choose how to spread your relics, all on one person or across many people. You choose if you force an unhappy relationship for the reward of more offspring. This is what I mean - its just another choice.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 07:39 PM
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 346 ]
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I feel like my position on this topic is a pretty simple one.

As an evil overlord grinding my people into dirt over a century’s time so that I can stop the demons from taking what is rightfully theirs, I feel that it is my right and my duty to breed my best only with the rest of my best to produce the finest warrior caste stock ever imagined. If that means that my two big, hairy viking warriors have to suck it up and deal with it whether they’re attracted to each other or not, it sucks to be them. They should have been born immortal kings instead, then they could decide which cattle get what they want and which get what I need them to get.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 07:45 PM
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 347 ]
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Presenting real-life issues like this in-game ins’t that easy or simple… making sexuality such a important part of the game means that even a gay person can come to dislike or avoid in-game gays, if they don’t fit its strategy or playstyle. And unlike saying “Elves suck”, saying “Gays suck” or asking for mods to remove them means you’re being homophobic…  not the kind of thing I want to be bothered about when I’m trying to play a game and relax.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 08:25 PM
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 348 ]
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If they have this feature, I’d prefer if it was in a players choice way. I can choose to have my hero hang with wang, or jam with clam, I wouldn’t want anything forced or predetermine.

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Posted: 04 June 2013 08:36 PM
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 349 ]
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hot - 04 June 2013 07:16 PM
bills6693 - 04 June 2013 06:26 PM

1) If everything is neutral, many people will simply only ever pair them off in a hetrosexual way. It may be that homosexual pairings never even cross their mind, they may not think it even possible or just not think of it. This is simply another form of ‘avoiding’.
2) If there are no ‘consequences’ for this, it could very subtly and slightly, reinforce the idea that it isn’t an important issue and that in real life, there are no consequences.
3) As has been said, gay people have had to endure, unhappily, straight relationships. This is an issue which should be brought up, and shown to the player - if someone is gay, they cannot simply choose to be straight and be happy with it. This, I feel, is one of the major issues within equality and acceptance. I have said this isn’t an issue I can directly relate to, but I talk with my friends sometimes about gay equality etc (especially when its on the news etc), and that it is a choice and that gay people should just stop doing it is something that friends of mine, who are really nice people, genuinely say and think.

I don’t want this game to be shouting out about this, it shouldn’t be there to champion gay rights or equality, etc. But it should show consequences and unhappiness in a small way. It is by these little things, these little hints that through familiarity become ingrained in the way people see the world. Its not you seeing something on a big flashy billboard, its you hearing something in a conversation you overhear slightly, without noticing. It still sinks in, and you don’t go into it with a pre-formed opinion, and thus defend them-self from it (sorry, I am a psychology student at university raspberry)

eeeeeeeeeeeeehh I’m starting to see where some of the other people in this thread are coming from. First of all, I am 100% for gay relationships in the game and for not providing a “remove all potentially gay pairings from my view” button in the menu. I will almost certainly make some of my couples gay if I can. But… I don’t think it’s the game’s job to prevent “avoiding” in the sense you’re talking about. Making gay pairings first class citizens in the user interface is what I would consider a good way of presenting homosexuality as equal and okay. Making orientations predetermined crosses the line into pushing an agenda, I think.

So why do I think this? It’s not because I have any problems with encountering gay characters. It’s because I want to define the personalities of my soldiers myself. I’m assuming the soldiers will be basically blank slates that will spout maybe 10 different canned lines. I want my character sheets to be mine to fill out, and to not have a category scribbled in before I get there. I want to build little stories for these characters in my mind. So if the little stories I’m making up in my mind say that Bob loves Steve, then I will be super bummed out when this generic character with no personality suddenly grows his own opinions and says “Nah, bro, I’m actually straight.”

Now, if these characters will have unique, original personalities then I have no problem with predetermined orientations. If the character sheet is already filled out, then I’ll be like “cool, tell me a story.” In Fire Emblem Awakening one of the characters is simply too shy to talk to some guy, and therefore she can never marry him no matter what I want her to do. I’m okay with this because she is a distinct character with her own ideas. Do you get where I’m coming from?

Who says you don’t have an imagination Mr. Player Narrative? And I’m 100% with hot on this, I’d much rather decide for myself the personalities and personal histories of my characters. I think that it’s more interesting from my point of view as a play style and it will cause me to form an attachment. Like all I have to do is point to Mass Effect or the Sims and how the simplest choices can cause me to form a very unique and personal bond with those avatars. Hell I felt a special connection with my Saints Leader in SR3 and all I did was pick her look and voice. Keeping the matching system agnostic to gender and orientation allows for greater flexibility and strategy while nonchalantly allowing for inclusiveness in a way that doesn’t burden the mechanics with unintentional statements about lifestyles that seems to lean toward or away from either. It’s impossible for a gay pairing to seem lame to the player (as felipepepe “fears”) from a mechanical point of view anyways because there is no difference mechanically.

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Posted: 05 June 2013 12:07 AM
  [ Ignore ]   [ # 350 ]
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hot - 04 June 2013 07:16 PM

So why do I think this? It’s not because I have any problems with encountering gay characters. It’s because I want to define the personalities of my soldiers myself. I’m assuming the soldiers will be basically blank slates that will spout maybe 10 different canned lines. I want my character sheets to be mine to fill out, and to not have a category scribbled in before I get there. I want to build little stories for these characters in my mind. So if the little stories I’m making up in my mind say that Bob loves Steve, then I will be super bummed out when this generic character with no personality suddenly grows his own opinions and says “Nah, bro, I’m actually straight.”

I think this is another KEY reason why I’m in camp “Don’t even refer to it, just let the player do whatever”

These types of game for me have always been more about the implied stories that go on in my head than the ones that are explicitly put on the screen. The stories that I ‘read into’ the game rather than ones imposed. These ostensibly blank characters develop a personality in my head, and that’s part of what makes me grow attached to them over the course of a game.

I don’t disagree that there would be a whole lot of interesting things DF could do if they made it more explicit than just being neutral as to who pairs with whom, but I think I’d miss that element of control I feel like I have over the narratives of all my lil heroes in the game.

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