--- title: PsychOdyssey EP01 - “The Color of the Sky in Your World” date: 2023-01-20T12:41:00-08:00 author: Harper Jay canonical_url: "https://www.doublefine.com/dftv/psychodyssey-ep01-the-color-of-the-sky-in-your-world" section: DFTV Videos --- [Watch on YouTube: The Color of the Sky in Your World](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKoy_KMVIyU) [View transcript ](https://www.doublefine.com/dftv/psychodyssey-ep01-the-color-of-the-sky-in-your-world#transcript) # The Color of the Sky in Your World On the ten-year anniversary of Psychonauts, Double Fine veterans reflect back on the turbulent production. Tim decides it might be time to return to the Psychonauts universe. [ Download Video ](https://archive.org/details/Double_Fine_PsychOdyssey) Duration: 42 minutes and 36 seconds long Published: January 20th 2023 [psychodyssey](https://www.doublefine.com/search/tag/psychodyssey)[psychonauts 2](https://www.doublefine.com/search/tag/psychonauts-2)[making of psychonauts 2](https://www.doublefine.com/search/tag/making-of-psychonauts-2)[documentary](https://www.doublefine.com/search/tag/documentary) [ NEXT EPISODE ](#) [![](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/news/2023/02/PsychOdyssey-Cover.jpg)**PsychOdyssey** 4KClosed Captions](https://www.doublefine.com/dftv/psychodyssey) ## Episode Stills Gallery - [![A smirking Tim Schafer plays with a white Xbox-branded ping-pong ball.](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-01-Tim.jpeg)](//assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-01-Tim.jpeg "Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Tim") - [![Tim raises a glass of bubbly champagne brightly lit from behind by a large window in the kitchen of Double Fine's offices.](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-02-Tim-champagne.jpeg)](//assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-02-Tim-champagne.jpeg "Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Tim champagne") - [![Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Team](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-03-Team.jpeg)](//assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-03-Team.jpeg "Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Team") - [![Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Raz and Sasha](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-04-Raz-and-Sasha.jpeg)](//assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-04-Raz-and-Sasha.jpeg "Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Raz and Sasha") - [![A photo of a CRT monitor showing a close-up of Raz running on brown earth in an early build of Psychonauts.](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-05-Raz.jpeg)](//assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-05-Raz.jpeg "Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Raz") - [![A close-up of a vanilla cupcake with an image of Raz on the top.](https://assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-06-Cupcake.jpeg)](//assets.doublefine.com/shared/dftv/psychodyssey/stills/Double-Fine-PsychOdyssey-Episode-1-Stills-06-Cupcake.jpeg "Double Fine PsychOdyssey - Episode 1 - Cupcake") ## Episode Transcript 15 secondsI can't believe that this stuff has been up actually for-- 19 secondssince April. 25 secondsPAUL: So, what's next? 27 secondsPsychonauts 2. 29 seconds\[MUSIC\] 1 minute and 8 secondsTIM: ...and have cupcake. 1 minute and 9 secondsUm, I just feel compelled to do this now because it's, like, a habit. 1 minute and 13 secondsBut I want to say happy birthday to Psychonauts! 1 minute and 15 secondsAnd congratulations to the Psychonauts team! 1 minute and 19 secondsWho is still here and... 1 minute and 20 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 1 minute and 22 seconds...has survived. 1 minute and 23 secondsOr haven't thought of anything better to do. 1 minute and 25 secondsOr have done that, and then come back. 1 minute and 29 secondsRAY: Oh, Psychona-- oh, yeah! 1 minute and 30 secondsWe should talk about the Psychonauts anniversary. 1 minute and 32 secondsTen years. 1 minute and 34 secondsThat's crazy! 1 minute and 35 secondsTIM: Between us, old-timers, we can remember anything 1 minute and 38 secondsabout that old game. 1 minute and 39 secondsIt's been a long time! 1 minute and 40 secondsRUSTY: My gosh! It just doesn't feel like ten years have gone by already. 1 minute and 45 secondsI mean, when you think about everything that's come out 1 minute and 47 secondsfrom the studio since then, it does. 1 minute and 50 secondsBut, you know, there is still some vivid memories, 1 minute and 53 secondsyou know, of making that game, so. 1 minute and 55 secondsMostly good memories at this point. 1 minute and 58 secondsWhoa, whoa! Here's our community report from Spaff! 2 minutes and 1 secondSpaff, how's our community? 2 minutes and 3 secondsPsychonauts 10th anniversary stuff has been making people happy. 2 minutes and 5 secondsSharing memories and generally talking about that. 2 minutes and 8 secondsI've seen some people streaming it and revisiting it. 2 minutes and 10 secondsSo, that's pretty cool. 2 minutes and 11 secondsGREG: Similarly, like we were talking about, with all of Tim's games, 2 minutes and 13 secondsit's just kind of an evergreen title that just continues to sell. 2 minutes and 17 secondsIt's still, like, our most popular game on Steam. 2 minutes and 20 secondsUh, and it's definitely the most requested game we ever get. 2 minutes and 23 secondsLike, any time we put anything out, or do any kind of newsworthy press, 2 minutes and 29 secondsthere is a comment about, like: "When are you guys doing Psychonauts 2?" 2 minutes and 32 secondsI mean, that would be awesome. 2 minutes and 33 secondsThat would be awesome to be making a sequel. 2 minutes and 34 secondsI'll say that'd be great to be making a sequel. 2 minutes and 36 secondsHENDERSON: Sorry? 2 minutes and 37 secondsTIM: Uh, that'd be great to make a sequel! 2 minutes and 38 secondsI'm not against that, but, uh, it's hard. 2 minutes and 40 secondsCosts money. 2 minutes and 42 secondsI mean, I don't know. 2 minutes and 43 secondsI feel like it was always on the horizon so many times. 2 minutes and 45 secondsSo, he was like: "Dude, I think we might do it." 2 minutes and 47 secondsI'm like: "All right, let's do it!" He is like: "We might..." 2 minutes and 49 secondsAnd then I don't hear from him for a while... 2 minutes and 51 seconds"Dude, I think-- I think we are gonna do it!" 2 minutes and 53 secondsTim has said, you know, if we do it, he wants me to work on it, so, um... 2 minutes and 58 secondsSo, I'm like: "All right, let's-- let's go for it." 3 minutes and 0 secondsI have wanted to make that for a while. 3 minutes and 3 secondsAnd it's the kind of game that I would want to play 3 minutes and 6 secondsout of our old games that we made. 3 minutes and 8 secondsMore than adventure games, more than RTS games. 3 minutes and 10 secondsI think platformers... 3 minutes and 12 secondslike, action platformers is what I'd like to do. 3 minutes and 15 seconds\[MUSIC\] 3 minutes and 49 secondsI brought this. 3 minutes and 50 secondsDreamscape. We watched Dreamscape. 3 minutes and 52 secondsDennis Quaid stars as Alex Gardner, a psychologically gifted young man. 3 minutes and 56 secondsIt looks just like Temple of Doom. 3 minutes and 57 secondsIt's got Kate Capshaw on it. 4 minutes and 1 secondTIM: Because this is, like, going back to-- I'm trying-- 4 minutes and 3 secondsIn one way, it's putting my head back into, like: 4 minutes and 6 seconds"Where was I when I came up with that first idea?" 4 minutes and 8 secondsLike: "What was going into my head?" 4 minutes and 10 secondsJust to kind of reconnect with what I was thinking then. 4 minutes and 13 secondsAnd then, yeah, stuff that I've experienced since then. 4 minutes and 21 secondsHENDERSON: But, yeah, this, I believe-- 4 minutes and 22 secondsDid it actually start-- 4 minutes and 25 secondsLike, the original seed for Psychonauts was, like, 4 minutes and 27 secondsa sequence in Full Throttle? 4 minutes and 29 seconds\[MUSIC\] 4 minutes and 36 secondsTIM: The story is that I, um-- 4 minutes and 39 secondsmaking Full Throttle I really wanted to explore interactive dream sequences. 4 minutes and 43 secondsSpecifically, I wanted Ben to, um-- 4 minutes and 46 secondsBen Throttle to take peyote, and wander out into the desert, and have a vision, 4 minutes and 50 secondsand that somehow in the vision there was a secret to knowledge 4 minutes and 53 secondshe had in his brain, but he couldn't access. 4 minutes and 55 secondsAnd, um, so it was kind of, like, an interactive peyote trip. 4 minutes and 58 secondsBut there was a problem. 5 minutes and 0 secondsLucasfilm is much more-- you know, it's a family company. 5 minutes and 3 secondsPeyote trip was a little bit much. 5 minutes and 6 secondsAnd so, I kind of shelved it, and then-- 5 minutes and 8 secondsBut I've always been interested in that idea 5 minutes and 9 secondsthat there is stuff in our minds that we don't, um, know about. 5 minutes and 13 secondsLike, in our unconscious minds. 5 minutes and 14 secondsAnd that if we could just get in there and dig around, 5 minutes and 17 secondswe could uncover secrets that are in our own brain. 5 minutes and 21 secondsI was kind of talking about this idea, and then, um... 5 minutes and 24 secondsone of the programmers from another team came into my office and was like: 5 minutes and 27 seconds"Hey, tell me about this game idea about going into people's heads." 5 minutes and 30 secondsAnd-- and-- and-- 5 minutes and 32 secondsUm, I was like: "No, no, you don't go into other people's head. 5 minutes and 34 secondsYou go into your own head." 5 minutes and 35 secondsAnd then I was like: 5 minutes and 36 seconds"Wait, that's much better. That's much better! 5 minutes and 38 secondsGoing into other people's heads is much better." 5 minutes and 42 secondsAnd then, there was another time 5 minutes and 43 secondswhere, uh, we were at lunch with friends from work. 5 minutes and 48 secondsAnd someone said something kind of strange, 5 minutes and 50 secondsand another friend just stared at them and said: 5 minutes and 52 seconds"What color is the sky in your world?" 5 minutes and 54 secondsAnd he was just like-- he was just like-- like, he saw a-- 5 minutes and 57 secondsAnd, like, what color is the sky in your world? 5 minutes and 59 secondsAnd I just kept thinking about that phrase. 6 minutes and 1 secondUm, yeah, if you could go into someone's world, 6 minutes and 3 secondslike, what color is the sky in their world? 6 minutes and 5 secondsYou don't want to hear these stories. Psychonauts... 6 minutes and 7 secondsLook at my-- My handwriting was better then. 6 minutes and 9 seconds"Oh, well, maybe it's a summer camp. Summer camp isn't bad." 6 minutes and 14 seconds"If the whole place is bad, who cares if you win? 6 minutes and 16 secondsIt has to be a good place, a happy place. 6 minutes and 18 secondsAnd they are training you to be in the Psychonauts." 6 minutes and 21 secondsHmm. 6 minutes and 23 secondsThat was a good day. That was a good day! 6 minutes and 24 secondsSometimes in the book you just write out everything, 6 minutes and 26 secondsand get everything done. 6 minutes and 27 secondsAnd then, that's when the idea really took off in my head. 6 minutes and 29 secondsAll these metaphors, different paranoias, or fears, or mental hangups. 6 minutes and 34 secondsAnd what that would look like in their mind, and then it just-- 6 minutes and 36 secondsIt was just like one idea after another started coming out. 6 minutes and 39 seconds\[MUSIC\] 6 minutes and 42 secondsAnd eventually, um, I left the company. 6 minutes and 46 secondsAnd, um, I left the company for a couple of reasons. 6 minutes and 49 secondsOne was just wanting to have control over what I was doing, and what I created, 6 minutes and 53 secondsbecause of that-- 6 minutes and 55 secondsthat incident where I had heard second-hand 6 minutes and 57 secondsthat they were going to make a sequel to Full Throttle 6 minutes and 59 secondsand I wasn't involved, and I, like... 7 minutes and 0 secondsThat felt so creepy, because I felt such a personal ownership 7 minutes and 3 secondsover that character and that world. 7 minutes and 6 secondsAnd I realized I didn't own it, and that was fair. 7 minutes and 8 secondsSo, if I really wanted to own my own stuff, 7 minutes and 10 secondsI'd have to take a risk on starting my own company. 7 minutes and 13 secondsTIM: Nice packing job! 7 minutes and 15 secondsTIM: On the 26th of July, which is my birthday, 7 minutes and 19 secondsand it's not that way on purpose, 7 minutes and 20 secondswas the first day that Dave Dixon, 7 minutes and 22 secondsour first Lead Programmer could start work. 7 minutes and 25 secondsSo, he, um... 7 minutes and 26 secondsHe was like: "I can start that day!" 7 minutes and 28 secondsAnd I was like: "Okay, that's weird. That's my birthday!" 7 minutes and 30 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 7 minutes and 32 secondsTIM: This is the first page of us brainstorming ideas for the company name. 7 minutes and 36 secondsHella Fun. 7 minutes and 37 secondsQuitCo. We were so excited about quitting. 7 minutes and 39 secondsSoul Patch. Because we all had soul patches. 7 minutes and 40 secondsDouble Fine. 7 minutes and 42 seconds\[MUSIC\] 7 minutes and 48 secondsTIM: That was-- that was just-- that was still a fun time. 7 minutes and 50 secondsLike, starting your own first company, it's still so crazy! 7 minutes and 53 secondsYou are, like, looking at the walls. 7 minutes and 55 secondsYou are like: "This is all-- This is my company. 7 minutes and 57 secondsFor starters, that person works for me. That's so weird!" 7 minutes and 59 seconds-SCOTT: Ow-w-w! -BAGEL: Whee-oo! 8 minutes and 0 seconds-Ow-w-w! -Ow! 8 minutes and 1 secondHey, check me putting-- putting this shelf in! 8 minutes and 3 secondsOw-w-w! The party! 8 minutes and 6 seconds\[TIM LAUGHS\] 8 minutes and 7 secondsI don't know if you've heard about that cool garage. 8 minutes and 9 secondsBut it was a pretty punk rock garage! 8 minutes and 11 secondsPAUL: So, what was the experience like being at the original Clara office? 8 minutes and 13 seconds\[KEE LAUGHS\] 8 minutes and 15 secondsUm... 8 minutes and 18 secondsIt was-- It was, uh... interesting. 8 minutes and 23 seconds\[TIM SCREAMS\] 8 minutes and 27 secondsIt was very, very cold in the winter. 8 minutes and 29 secondsAnd so, we had these space heaters. 8 minutes and 30 secondsAnd when you plugged them in... 8 minutes and 33 secondsuh, the power would completely go out in the entire building. 8 minutes and 35 secondsKEE: I think, at the time-- 8 minutes and 37 secondsThere was definitely some, um-- 8 minutes and 39 secondsdifficulties when it comes to just the facilities, right? 8 minutes and 42 secondsTIM: Ugh. 8 minutes and 44 secondsAnd, of course, there is the exploding toilets 8 minutes and 47 secondsthat we used to get when the rain came. 8 minutes and 50 secondsThe junkies. 8 minutes and 51 secondsTIM: There it is. Our first dirty needle. 8 minutes and 54 secondsYeah! 8 minutes and 56 secondsRUSTY: There was a terrible time 8 minutes and 57 secondswhen somebody was getting a blowjob outside 8 minutes and 59 secondson our big metal garage door, 9 minutes and 1 secondbut they were banging up against it. 9 minutes and 3 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 9 minutes and 4 secondsTIM: So, there were some hazards about it, but it was really good for parties. 9 minutes and 8 secondsThese are the priorities you have when you are starting a company 9 minutes and 10 secondswhen you are in your twenties, right? 9 minutes and 11 secondsTIM: I can't believe we actually could afford a band for this! 9 minutes and 15 secondsAnd my wife, that's where I met her. 9 minutes and 16 secondsShe came to one of the parties. 9 minutes and 19 secondsAnd being able to make-- I made everyone's desk at first. 9 minutes and 22 secondsI mean they were these cheap IKEA desks, but I hand-stained them. 9 minutes and 25 secondsI let them pick: "What color do you want?" 9 minutes and 26 secondsAnd, like, mixed the stain, and like: 9 minutes and 28 seconds"This is really important to our company that I hand-make you a-- 9 minutes and 32 secondsso you feel like I made you-- There is your desk!" 9 minutes and 34 secondsTIM: And there is Dave! 9 minutes and 35 secondsSmart choice of desk color, Dave! 9 minutes and 37 secondsI've gotta commend you on that. 9 minutes and 39 secondsReally tasteful! 9 minutes and 40 secondsDAVE: See that blue? That blue is shite. 9 minutes and 42 secondsTIM: Blue is what? 9 minutes and 43 secondsBlue is shite. 9 minutes and 44 secondsTIM: It's sh-- oh! Oh, he is speaking British! 9 minutes and 46 secondsTIM: And they were really unstruc-- Structurally unsound too. 9 minutes and 49 secondsSo, we had to get rid of all of them, but, um... 9 minutes and 50 secondsI was sitting there staining desks on the weekends. 9 minutes and 53 secondsBack then, I think, I was thinking a lot about just cultural fit. 9 minutes and 56 secondsYou know, like: "Will this person, you know, work out here?" 9 minutes and 59 secondsAnd, you know, it's, like, almost fifteen years later 10 minutes and 2 secondsfor some of those people, so. 10 minutes and 4 secondsUh, I was at least right fifty percent of the time. 10 minutes and 6 secondsTIM'S MOM: But, Timmy... 10 minutes and 7 secondsTIM: What? 10 minutes and 8 secondsYou have nice friends! 10 minutes and 10 secondsTIM: Oh, were they nice? 10 minutes and 11 seconds-Really nice guys! -Yeah! 10 minutes and 13 secondsTIM: I feel like you can tell when you meet somebody 10 minutes and 15 secondswhether they are just like the kind of person 10 minutes and 18 secondswho gets involved in things with their whole person. 10 minutes and 20 secondsThey were just like: "I'm going to give everything I have to this game." 10 minutes and 23 secondsAnd you could-- You could tell that when you met them. 10 minutes and 25 secondsThirteen years for Kee Chi! Where is Kee? 10 minutes and 28 seconds-Kee! Kee Chi! Thirteen years. -\[CLAPPING\] 10 minutes and 31 secondsTIM: Well, it says thirteen years, 10 minutes and 33 secondsbut it doesn't mention an outage for... about a year. 10 minutes and 37 secondsBut I would never draw attention to that to make him feel uncomfortable. 10 minutes and 41 secondsOtherwise, that would make you tied with another person. 10 minutes and 44 secondsBut you gave someone else a slight edge. 10 minutes and 46 secondsHappy thirteen-year, for real, anniversary to Anna Kipnis! 10 minutes and 49 seconds\[CLAPPING\] 10 minutes and 51 secondsTIM: Holy crap! 10 minutes and 52 secondsWel-- uh, welcome to the company. 10 minutes and 54 secondsOkay. 10 minutes and 55 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 10 minutes and 57 secondsI don't know if I've ever said that before, but welcome to both of you. 11 minutes and 0 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 11 minutes and 1 secondTIM: And Scott, uh... 11 minutes and 3 secondsI only knew Scott a little bit. 11 minutes and 5 secondsBecause we both worked at Lucas. 11 minutes and 6 secondsBut I worked at LucasArts, and he worked at Lucas Learning. 11 minutes and 8 secondsTIM: There! Handsome man! 11 minutes and 10 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 11 minutes and 11 secondsTIM: Who is a handsome boy? 11 minutes and 13 secondsSCOTT: I remember exactly when I was, uh... 11 minutes and 16 secondsturned to being super into him. 11 minutes and 18 secondsLike, where I was like: "Oh, this guy is a super genius!" 11 minutes and 20 secondsAnd it wasn't from his games or anything like that. 11 minutes and 22 secondsIt was mostly... 11 minutes and 23 secondsHe sent this company-wide email out one time. 11 minutes and 26 secondsAbout something he discovered on email, like, to do. 11 minutes and 28 secondsLike, he figured out how to do something. 11 minutes and 31 secondsAnd the way that he wrote it was the funniest thing I've ever seen. 11 minutes and 35 secondsIt was so funny! I was like: "This guy is..." 11 minutes and 38 secondsLike, he's, like, he's used the medium of email-- 11 minutes and 40 secondslike, he's mastered it already, you know? 11 minutes and 43 secondsLike, that's, like, masterful writing. 11 minutes and 45 secondsLike, just from email writing. 11 minutes and 47 secondsSo, after that I was like: "I love this dude!" 11 minutes and 49 secondsI'd see him around and be like: 11 minutes and 50 seconds"Oh, man. There is that guy. He is so funny, man! 11 minutes and 52 secondsThat email was so funny!" 11 minutes and 54 secondsWhen Tim first came to me about-- for Psychonauts, he was, like-- 11 minutes and 58 secondswhen he was pitching me the game and stuff, 12 minutes and 0 secondshe was talking a lot about, like, Rankin/Bass, stop motion stuff, you know. 12 minutes and 4 secondsWhich is already really interesting, because you are looking at, like-- 12 minutes and 7 secondsthose were, like, '50s illustrations that they successfully turned 12 minutes and 11 secondsinto 3D and stuff like that, so. 12 minutes and 12 secondsLike, it was-- 12 minutes and 13 secondsIt was really cool to imagine the stop motion, like, world like that. 12 minutes and 17 secondsAnd I loved how he thought about, like, that. 12 minutes and 18 secondsLike, we are doing 3D, 12 minutes and 20 secondstrying to make it not look like real humans, 12 minutes and 22 secondsbut make it look like it was little toys and stuff, so. 12 minutes and 25 secondsThat was super attractive. 12 minutes and 27 secondsBut I know that he hired me because, uh-- to art direct it, 12 minutes and 31 secondsbecause he was wanting it to be the style of kind of my paintings at that time. 12 minutes and 35 secondsI went to one of his art shows, and he had this, um... 12 minutes and 38 secondsthis piece that we have hanging up on the wall now. 12 minutes and 41 secondsWhich is, like, from a show called Tongue-Tied, 12 minutes and 43 secondswhere there are all these little pictures of people in awkward situations. 12 minutes and 46 secondsAnd just looking at that-- these little doodly drawings of characters, 12 minutes and 49 secondsI was like: "I've never seen anything like that in a video game. 12 minutes and 51 secondsI've never seen characters like that ever in a video game." 12 minutes and 54 secondsTIM: Brilliant. Excellent. 12 minutes and 57 secondsYes! 12 minutes and 59 secondsSCOTT: The kid head. 13 minutes and 2 secondsTIM: Oh, sorry, the head was upside-down, I couldn't tell. 13 minutes and 4 secondsTIM: And that was the appeal. 13 minutes and 5 secondsIt was, like, kind of an outsiders take on-- on art. 13 minutes and 7 secondsAnd I really felt import-- It was important to hire people 13 minutes and 10 secondswho are not just kind of from the mindset of games as they were. 13 minutes and 14 secondsBut, like, from the world of fine art, or outside of games. 13 minutes and 17 secondsTo bring a really fresh look to it. Because I didn't want them to look-- 13 minutes and 20 secondsI didn't want Double Fine games to look like other people's games. 13 minutes and 23 secondsTIM: Could you please say your name? 13 minutes and 24 secondsHi, I'm Peter Chan. 13 minutes and 27 secondsTIM: Excellent. 13 minutes and 28 secondsCould you please state your full name? 13 minutes and 30 secondsPeter Chan. 13 minutes and 31 seconds\[TIM CHUCKLES\] 13 minutes and 32 seconds\[MUSIC\] 13 minutes and 33 secondsTIM: But there was a lot of just figuring out how to be a company. 13 minutes and 36 secondsI forgot that part. We were starting a new company. 13 minutes and 38 secondsSo, like, figuring out how to, like, exist as a business entity. 13 minutes and 42 secondsTIM: Okay, tell us what that is. Sell it. Sell it, baby. 13 minutes and 44 secondsThis is the box called X. 13 minutes and 48 secondsIt's hu-u-uge! 13 minutes and 49 secondsTIM: Yeah, we were just-- you know, we started that, 13 minutes and 51 secondsand we were really, really lucky that the Xbox launched right then. 13 minutes and 54 secondsBecause, you know, Ed Fries was running it. 13 minutes and 57 secondsAnd he had this thing about games being more than-- 13 minutes and 59 seconds"Games can be art." 14 minutes and 0 secondsAnd I was like: "That sounds like what I want to do!" 14 minutes and 3 secondsI played video games! 14 minutes and 4 secondsThat was what I did when I wasn't at work! 14 minutes and 6 secondsI mean, I loved video games and played them all the time. 14 minutes and 9 secondsThat was my hobby. 14 minutes and 11 secondsSo, I'm-- I have a lot of connections in the Game Group, 14 minutes and 14 secondsand I'm calling on all of them. 14 minutes and 16 secondsMicrosoft Games Group. 14 minutes and 18 secondsFRIES: Because I need content desperately. 14 minutes and 20 secondsAnd-- and, you know, just everywhere I can 14 minutes and 23 secondsI'm trying to get these projects together. 14 minutes and 25 secondsTIM: I remember I was going to give a talk at GDC. 14 minutes and 27 secondsMy very first talk at any conference. 14 minutes and 29 secondsAnd it was about character design. 14 minutes and 31 secondsAnd after the talk Ed Fries comes up, who is running the studio. 14 minutes and 35 secondsUm, and he comes up, and he is like: 14 minutes and 37 seconds"I really liked your talk, I want to talk to you about making games." 14 minutes and 39 secondsAnd he put this down on the table. 14 minutes and 40 secondsHe was like: "I'm really excited about the stuff that we talked about." 14 minutes and 43 secondsAnd he just left this on the table. 14 minutes and 45 secondsLike, this is the table. 14 minutes and 47 secondsHold on, let's add the drama. 14 minutes and 48 secondsHere is the table. 14 minutes and 50 secondsHe was like: "I'm really excited about the stuff we talked about. 14 minutes and 54 secondsHope to talk to you again in the future." 14 minutes and 56 seconds\[MUSIC\] 14 minutes and 57 secondsSo, uh, we signed the contract with Microsoft. 15 minutes and 0 secondsAnd everything went smoothly, and we shipped the game, and that's it. 15 minutes and 3 seconds\[TIM CHUCKLES\] 15 minutes and 4 secondsUm, but other than that, 15 minutes and 6 secondswe were having a lot of fun coming up with the brain ideas, you know. 15 minutes and 9 secondsJust-- just, um, every person you could think of, like, what-- 15 minutes and 11 secondswhat color in the sky-- 15 minutes and 13 secondsWhat color was the sky in their world, we'd ask for every person, and, um... 15 minutes and 17 secondsI think things at the Theater just came 15 minutes and 18 secondsfrom thinking about that mental state of, uh, being bipolar. 15 minutes and 21 secondsAnd being really, really happy, and switching between these two moods. 15 minutes and 24 secondsLike, how could that be represented in a theater 15 minutes and 27 secondsthat, like, changes its sets really quickly, or flips over. 15 minutes and 30 secondsThe Milkman Conspiracy was about those-- 15 minutes and 32 secondsBased on that character who's really had a lot of conspiracy theories. 15 minutes and 35 secondsBut it didn't-- In the original inception it was like: 15 minutes and 37 seconds"Well, his mind will represent that he is caught in a web of conspiracies." 15 minutes and 41 secondsSo, he'll be-- His street will be-- 15 minutes and 42 secondsHis house will be in the center of this spider web of streets. 15 minutes and 45 secondsAnd then, Peter Chan drew it as, like: "Wah!" 15 minutes and 47 secondsIt's, like, all turned on its side. 15 minutes and 49 secondsAnd he is like: "What about this instead?" And I was like: "That's a lot cooler." 15 minutes and 52 secondsAnd the programmers were like: "No-o-o! Don't do it." 15 minutes and 55 secondsI was like: "Tough luck. Come on, figure it out. It's fun!" 15 minutes and 57 secondsAnd so, sometimes the whole concept for the level would come from that. 16 minutes and 0 secondsAnd then we'd take that back, and level designers would go like: 16 minutes and 2 seconds"What can you do with a world that's twisted around on itself. 16 minutes and 4 secondsWhat can you do with a world that's, like, on a cube." 16 minutes and 7 secondsIt was just a really exciting, collaborative time, 16 minutes and 9 secondswhere everyone was inspiring each other to come up with crazy ideas. 16 minutes and 12 secondsIt was an extremely ambitious project. 16 minutes and 15 secondsAnd he had some pretty crazy, high concept ideas for it 16 minutes and 19 secondsthat were going to be really challenging, I think, to pull off. 16 minutes and 22 seconds"Dude, that seems like a lot of wo-- 16 minutes and 24 secondsThat seems hard, you know? 16 minutes and 26 secondsA lot of worlds to figure out." 16 minutes and 29 secondsBut then, when I was on the project, I was like: 16 minutes and 31 seconds"What the heck! We are actually doing this crazy thing! 16 minutes and 35 secondsOkay, we are in it now." 16 minutes and 36 secondsNow, it's, like, there is so much knowledge that's, like, totally available. 16 minutes and 39 secondsBut in 2003? Like, no way! 16 minutes and 42 secondsLike, it was a bunch of people just trying to, like, play the games, 16 minutes and 44 secondsand figure it out, and it's really tough, you know. 16 minutes and 46 secondsAnd if you haven't done it before, and taking it all the way to the end, 16 minutes and 50 secondslike, you are not going to have that kind of knowledge. 16 minutes and 52 secondsAnd so, just nobody really had that. 16 minutes and 53 secondsThere were-- Plus there were a lot of, like, 16 minutes and 55 secondsgreen people that were right out of school. 16 minutes and 57 secondsTIM: Could you state your name, please? 16 minutes and 59 secondsOh, I'm not-- I'm Raymond Crook. 17 minutes and 2 secondsTIM: Very well. And what is your position at this company? 17 minutes and 6 secondsUh, company grunt. 17 minutes and 8 seconds\[RAY CHUCKLES\] 17 minutes and 9 secondsI remember he was like: "Well, how much do you want to get paid?" 17 minutes and 11 secondsAnd I'm like: "I-- uh, I don't know." 17 minutes and 14 secondsSo, I, like, threw out two numbers, you know. 17 minutes and 16 secondsLike, a higher and a lower number. And he picks the lower number. 17 minutes and 19 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 17 minutes and 19 secondsI'm like: "Okay. Okay." 17 minutes and 22 secondsNo, he did actually, I will-- I will say, he-- 17 minutes and 25 secondsWe were-- you know, I wasn't very long in the project, 17 minutes and 27 secondslike, a month, or a couple of weeks. 17 minutes and 29 secondsAnd we were working super late already. 17 minutes and 31 secondsAnd I remember him pulling me aside and saying: 17 minutes and 33 seconds"Hey, I'll give you that a little bit higher salary." 17 minutes and 36 seconds\[MUSIC\] 17 minutes and 37 secondsSCOTT: It was definitely an up and down ride. 17 minutes and 39 secondsYou know, a lot of late nights in the very beginning. 17 minutes and 42 secondsI mean, everyone wearing a million hats, 17 minutes and 43 secondsto kind of, you know-- spending the night, to try to just get the first-- 17 minutes and 47 secondsthe theater level done, to prove, like, what we can do. 17 minutes and 50 secondsAnd prove what the thing was like. 17 minutes and 52 secondsTIM: Everyone say: "Hi!" 17 minutes and 54 seconds-TIM: Hi. -EVERYONE: Hi! 17 minutes and 56 secondsTIM: "I love crunch mode!" 17 minutes and 58 secondsSay it! Say it! 18 minutes and 0 secondsRAY: When I came on, I just assumed that these guys were all, like, 18 minutes and 4 secondshardcore veterans that knew exactly what they were doing. 18 minutes and 6 secondsUm, but I quickly realized that really nobody knew what they were doing. 18 minutes and 12 secondsTIM: Show me your-- show me your bat. 18 minutes and 15 secondsMake it do something. Say: "The bat." 18 minutes and 19 secondsBAGEL: Whaa-whaa-ow. 18 minutes and 21 secondsTIM: So, you are trying to act like you know what you are doing. 18 minutes and 22 secondsBut you don't know what you are doing. 18 minutes and 23 secondsAnd you are quickly trying to figure out what to do. 18 minutes and 26 secondsAnd then, once we had our first playable version of the game, we realized: 18 minutes and 30 seconds"Oh, we don't want it to be anything like this. 18 minutes and 32 secondsThis is playing-- This is playing terrible!" 18 minutes and 35 secondsLike, we had a different version of the main character. 18 minutes and 37 secondsHe wasn't very compelling and he moved really slow. 18 minutes and 40 secondsSCOTT: Because he was like: 18 minutes and 41 seconds"Wow, this is not the leader of this cast of characters, you know. 18 minutes and 44 secondsThis guy with, like, a stocking cap, he is so odd looking 18 minutes and 46 secondscompared to all the other odd characters, so. 18 minutes and 48 secondsUm, that's why we had to redesign him. 18 minutes and 51 seconds\[MUSIC\] 18 minutes and 53 secondsSo, he ended up throwing that version out, completely almost. 18 minutes and 57 secondsAnd-- and starting over again. 18 minutes and 58 secondsSo, a lot of it was the throwing stuff out and starting over again. 19 minutes and 1 secondLearning process. 19 minutes and 3 secondsTIM: Geoff Soulis! 19 minutes and 6 seconds-GEOFF: How's it going? -TIM: What are you working on there? 19 minutes and 8 seconds\[MUSIC\] 19 minutes and 10 secondsGEOFF: You excelled by just sort of getting in there and doing it. 19 minutes and 13 secondsYou know, they were still trying to figure out the jump distances. 19 minutes and 16 secondsAnd so, I'm just like: "Well, let's give this a try, and... 19 minutes and 19 secondsand we'll go from there." 19 minutes and 20 secondsBut, you know, that's what you do 19 minutes and 21 secondswhen you first get a job in the games industry. 19 minutes and 25 secondsEspecially when you love it. 19 minutes and 26 secondsIt's-- that's just-- You work. 19 minutes and 28 seconds\[GEOFF CHUCKLES\] 19 minutes and 29 seconds\[MUSIC\] 19 minutes and 37 secondsTIM: My best, most comfortable nights were sleeping on the floor sometimes. 19 minutes and 40 secondsHuh? 19 minutes and 43 secondsTIM: Are you still asleep? 19 minutes and 46 secondsUh-heh, I'm going to, um, All Star Donuts. 19 minutes and 53 secondsWow, a late night? 19 minutes and 56 seconds-I'm just waking up. -\[TIM LAUGHS\] 19 minutes and 59 secondsSCOTT: And jokes were a lot funnier late night, you know? 20 minutes and 3 secondsBut, yeah, I kind of enjoyed it in a weird way, but... 20 minutes and 6 secondsSo. 20 minutes and 7 secondsKEE: Like, I was thinking about how we were working then. 20 minutes and 9 secondsBecause, I mean, there was a certain amount of naivety. 20 minutes and 11 secondsLike, I think if I approached Psychonauts now, like-- 20 minutes and 13 secondsThe amount of custom and reuse that we didn't do, 20 minutes and 17 secondswould be the stuff that I would be, like, really scared about now. 20 minutes and 20 secondsBut back then it was like: "Yeah, let's do it that way!" 20 minutes and 21 secondsThere was a lot more... 20 minutes and 22 seconds...naive optimism maybe? I don't know. 20 minutes and 25 secondsYou know, whenever some, like, crazy new thing came up, we just did it. 20 minutes and 29 secondsInstead of pushing back and thinking like: 20 minutes and 30 seconds"Oh, wait, I don't know if that's such a good idea." 20 minutes and 33 secondsTIM: That's our schedule. Don't look at that! 20 minutes and 36 seconds\[MUSIC\] 20 minutes and 41 seconds\[TIM VOCALIZES AN IMPACT SOUND\] 20 minutes and 44 secondsANNA: We didn't know exactly what we were doing, um, in some regard. 20 minutes and 47 secondsIt was okay, because that was part of the fun of the culture. 20 minutes and 52 secondsAnd, like, even just working on your first game ever. 20 minutes and 54 secondsGEOFF: There was a lot of camaraderie, you know. 20 minutes and 56 secondsThere was a very family atmosphere. 20 minutes and 58 secondsUm, and it was also sort of, like, 21 minutes and 0 secondsin the trenches atmosphere. 21 minutes and 2 secondsLike, it was such a-- a tough project. 21 minutes and 5 seconds\[MUSIC\] 21 minutes and 10 secondsYou know, everybody sort of really bonded together. 21 minutes and 15 secondsTIM: Oh my god! 21 minutes and 18 secondsBest present ever! 21 minutes and 20 secondsRAY: But there is a lot of good memories. 21 minutes and 23 secondsIt was-- it was fun. I mean, it was fun! 21 minutes and 25 secondsI mean, it was-- it was difficult, but it was actually a lot of fun. 21 minutes and 29 seconds\[MUSIC\] 21 minutes and 31 secondsOkay, here is homie crossing a street. 21 minutes and 33 seconds-Homie crossing a street. -He is going to the wrestling match! 21 minutes and 37 seconds-\[SCREAMING\] -Awesome! 21 minutes and 40 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 21 minutes and 42 secondsRUSTY: I remember during the crunches, you know, we'd get food in, 21 minutes and 45 secondswe'd sit in this room, we'd all be eating our Indian food, 21 minutes and 48 secondswe'd watch Arrested Development on the TV. 21 minutes and 51 secondsAnd those are some of the happiest memories 21 minutes and 52 secondsI have of working on Psychonauts. 21 minutes and 54 secondsBut it was during the worst time of working on Psychonauts. 21 minutes and 58 seconds\[MUSIC\] 22 minutes and 6 secondsTIM: You crashed it, man. 22 minutes and 10 secondsTIM: For a long time the game just didn't feel right, 22 minutes and 12 secondsand it was really bugging us. 22 minutes and 13 secondsWe were building environments, but the character didn't feel right. 22 minutes and 16 secondsAnd so, we finally started the Raz Action Status Meetings. 22 minutes and 19 secondsSo, like, you know, what about sliding up the ladder, 22 minutes and 21 secondssliding down the ladder, getting off the ladder, 22 minutes and 23 secondsjumping onto a tightrope. 22 minutes and 24 secondsAnd, like, we'd just go over those every single time we met. 22 minutes and 27 secondsWhich was-- for a while it was, like, every other day. 22 minutes and 30 secondsAnd we'd just do it over and over and over again, 22 minutes and 31 secondsuntil he was snappy and it felt really good. 22 minutes and 34 secondsTIM: I'm new D'Art, and I run and I lean! 22 minutes and 38 secondsRAY: Oh, he's got the little side-- the little side run? 22 minutes and 40 seconds-TIM: Isn't it cool how he leans? -RAY: Yeah, that's cool! 22 minutes and 43 secondsAwesome! 22 minutes and 46 secondsBut we still struggled to make a good, fun level. 22 minutes and 48 secondsWe still were having trouble just coming up with a level 22 minutes and 50 secondsthat really felt-- felt fun. 22 minutes and 51 secondsAfter trying to make the levels for a while 22 minutes and 53 secondswith level designers and artists... 22 minutes and 56 secondsThere was always-- these big fights back then 22 minutes and 57 secondsabout who owned the levels. 22 minutes and 58 seconds"Am I making the level and you are just making it pretty?" 23 minutes and 1 secondOr: "Am I making this beautiful thing 23 minutes and 2 secondsand you are just dropping in logic into it?" 23 minutes and 5 secondsEventually I felt like I had to pick one side or the other. 23 minutes and 8 secondsAnd, um... 23 minutes and 10 secondsEven though things were starting to look kind of pretty in the game, 23 minutes and 12 secondsthings were not fun yet. 23 minutes and 14 secondsSo, eventually, uh... 23 minutes and 16 secondsI don't even know if I want to go into all this stuff in the thing, 23 minutes and 18 secondsbut we laid-- I fired my Lead Level Designer. 23 minutes and 21 secondsWe promoted, um... 23 minutes and 23 secondsone of our level designers that we believed in. 23 minutes and 25 secondsIt was Erik Robson. 23 minutes and 26 secondsPromoted-- made him the Lead Level Designer. 23 minutes and 28 secondsAnd then ended up clearing out the whole level design team. 23 minutes and 31 secondsIt was our first, like-- 23 minutes and 33 secondsThree people fired on the same day. 23 minutes and 35 secondsIt was horrible, horrible day. 23 minutes and 36 secondsAnd, um... and then started again from scratch 23 minutes and 38 secondswith these new World Builders, like Geoff Soulis, 23 minutes and 42 secondswho were very junior at the time. 23 minutes and 43 secondsAnd, um... 23 minutes and 44 secondsAnd there was a lot less acrimony and a lot less fighting, 23 minutes and 47 secondsand things started getting done. 23 minutes and 48 secondsUm, but Microsoft was starting to be-- 23 minutes and 51 secondsbecome tired of waiting for the game to become fun, 23 minutes and 53 secondsand were like: "You guys really have to... 23 minutes and 56 secondsmake this game fun in the next three months. 23 minutes and 58 secondsOr we are going to can the project." 24 minutes and 0 secondsMicrosoft didn't-- 24 minutes and 2 secondshad reason not to trust us-- didn't trust us. 24 minutes and 4 secondsAnd we definitely felt that. 24 minutes and 6 secondsTIM: Erik just sat down with the current Black Velvetopia level, 24 minutes and 9 secondsand, like, rethought the whole thing. 24 minutes and 11 secondsAnd came up with the bull running through it thing. 24 minutes and 13 secondsWe mocked that up and it started-- 24 minutes and 15 secondsThat's the first time the game started feeling like a real game. 24 minutes and 17 secondsWe had the paintings you could hang, and it started coming together. 24 minutes and 21 secondsAnd they came down, and then they checked it out. 24 minutes and 23 secondsAnd I just remember the-- they had a design consultant, 24 minutes and 26 secondswho, um... who knew a lot about games, 24 minutes and 29 secondsbecause he had been a tester at Nintendo. 24 minutes and 31 secondsSo, they were like: "He's gonna tell you if your game is any good." 24 minutes and 34 secondsAnd he was like: "It's mildly pleasant." 24 minutes and 36 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 24 minutes and 37 secondsTV COMMENTATOR: So, Microsoft must be particularly pleased 24 minutes and 39 secondswith getting the nod for best original game for its Xbox. 24 minutes and 43 secondsPsychonauts won in that category. We are seeing it here. 24 minutes and 45 secondsIt's a unique game about Raz, 24 minutes and 47 secondsa kid who goes to psychic summer camp to shape his psychic abilities. 24 minutes and 51 secondsHe then gets to control people's minds. 24 minutes and 52 secondsAlmost like a combination of Stephen King's Firestarter 24 minutes and 55 secondsand something from the X-Men. 24 minutes and 57 secondsThat should hit shelves next spring. 24 minutes and 58 secondsBut the impression that I had was it was pretty close to shipping. 25 minutes and 2 secondsUm, which it definitely was not. 25 minutes and 5 secondsWe had really started to find-- figure out how to make the game. 25 minutes and 9 secondsAnd we were moving along pretty-- at a good rate at that point. 25 minutes and 12 secondsBut it took us a long time to get there. 25 minutes and 15 secondsI remember when we got a call. 25 minutes and 17 secondsYou know, we heard that there had been a change, uh, with the management. 25 minutes and 21 secondsINTERVIEWER: It kind of came as a surprise to a lot of gamers certainly, 25 minutes and 25 secondsand to most of the industry, 25 minutes and 27 secondsuh, when it was announced that you'd be leaving. 25 minutes and 28 secondsI mean, what was the kind of thinking behind your decision to leave. 25 minutes and 33 secondsED FRIES: Uh, when I started in the game business 25 minutes and 34 secondsit was because nobody cared about it, and I could do it my way. 25 minutes and 38 secondsAnd I'd either succeed or fail, but, you know, I knew it was my decisions, 25 minutes and 41 secondsand that's where it was going to go. 25 minutes and 43 secondsNow... it's so important to the company 25 minutes and 47 secondsthat there is a lot of people who have opinions about 25 minutes and 49 secondshow things should be done. 25 minutes and 50 secondsAnd, I'm just-- honestly, that was a difficult environment for me to work in. 25 minutes and 55 secondsTIM: "Ed Fries just quit. Um... 25 minutes and 58 secondsUh, but everything is going to stay the same. 26 minutes and 0 secondsNothing is going to change. But he just quit." 26 minutes and 2 secondsI was like: "Oh, well, that's-- I wonder if that's going to change anything." 26 minutes and 7 secondsAfter we'd heard everything is fine, I think it was the next day 26 minutes and 9 secondsthat everything wasn't fine. 26 minutes and 10 secondsAnd we found out that we were-- we were canceled. 26 minutes and 13 secondsWell, for some reason they got nervous and they dropped it. 26 minutes and 16 secondsAnd I fear that they dropped it in favor of a really middling title Voodoo Vince. 26 minutes and 20 secondsWhich-- which was a very pretty game, but not-- 26 minutes and 23 secondsthis is, I think, going to be a winner. 26 minutes and 24 secondsNow, who's call would that have been? 26 minutes and 26 secondsUm... I'm not 100%, but whoever it is, (they should be ashamed.) 26 minutes and 29 secondsPEREIRA: All right, fair enough. 26 minutes and 30 secondsI guess there is, like, a very-- that's a very common thing. 26 minutes and 33 secondsWhen, like, a new guy comes in, he wants to cut any none-sure bets. 26 minutes and 38 secondsLike, it's good to just, like, chop those out, 26 minutes and 41 secondsbecause you'll take the blame for them, if they don't pan out. 26 minutes and 46 secondsBut I remember there was some of that focus group stuff that they were doing. 26 minutes and 49 secondsBased on all this feedback they got from people, 26 minutes and 51 secondsthe weird score was, like, 26 minutes and 53 secondsmuch too high for them to, like, keep it around, you know. 26 minutes and 56 secondsUh, here is the marketing document that Microsoft made for Psychonauts. 27 minutes and 0 seconds"Based on the twelve focus groups conducted worldwide, 27 minutes and 2 secondsthe primary weakness of the game are: 27 minutes and 4 secondsThe storyline, which is considered unoriginal, childish, and overly complex." 27 minutes and 8 seconds\[TIM CHUCKLES\] 27 minutes and 10 seconds"Tongue-in-cheek nature of the game is a weakness. 27 minutes and 13 secondsIn addition, many feel the humor would get old, 27 minutes and 15 secondslimiting replayability. 27 minutes and 17 secondsHumor should be simplified, and made immediately apparent." 27 minutes and 20 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 27 minutes and 22 seconds"To help international appeal, limit game components 27 minutes and 25 secondsthat feel especially Americanized, i.e. summer camp." 27 minutes and 29 secondsWe did get dropped, 27 minutes and 30 secondsand we thought that all of that work 27 minutes and 33 secondsthat we had done was going to be for nothing. 27 minutes and 35 secondsFor that to just go away, just... 27 minutes and 37 secondsThat was a-- a horrifying feeling. 27 minutes and 39 secondsI was like: "Oh, god." 27 minutes and 41 secondsSo, we just, um, told the team to-- "We need to get ready for making a demo 27 minutes and 47 secondsthat we are going to use to re-sign this game." 27 minutes and 48 secondsBut... everybody stuck around. 27 minutes and 52 secondsRAY: Because everybody believed in it, and we-- we-- 27 minutes and 54 secondswe were at a point where you could kind of see 27 minutes and 56 secondswhat it was going to be. 27 minutes and 58 secondsAnd you knew that it was something special, 28 minutes and 0 secondsand so, we just kept-- kept working. 28 minutes and 4 secondsYeah. 28 minutes and 5 secondsYeah. 28 minutes and 7 secondsYou know, and I'm not 100% sure how even the company kept, um... 28 minutes and 11 secondsrunning at that point? 28 minutes and 13 secondsI'm not-- you know, I don't really know where the money came from. 28 minutes and 17 secondsMaybe I don't want to know. 28 minutes and 19 secondsSo, we are dragging it around, showing it everywhere, 28 minutes and 21 secondsand it was just really grueling. 28 minutes and 23 secondsThat's where I started hating the word creative. 28 minutes and 25 secondsBecause you pitch it, and then you knew if the first thing the publisher said was: 28 minutes and 29 seconds"It's very creative." 28 minutes and 30 secondsThat, like, you weren't going to get signed. 28 minutes and 32 secondsThat wasn't-- because that's not what they wanted to hear. 28 minutes and 34 secondsThey are like: "It's very creative, very creative." 28 minutes and 36 secondsIt's a way of saying-- it's, like: "Does not sound like money to me at all." 28 minutes and 39 secondsAnd that was a really dark and horrible time. 28 minutes and 43 secondsWe thought this one publisher was going to sign it, and they were like: 28 minutes and 47 seconds"Give us your routing number. We are really-- 28 minutes and 49 secondsWe are into it. We are going to sign it." 28 minutes and 50 secondsAnd, um, so I was like: "Oh, this is going to be good!" 28 minutes and 52 secondsSo-- but I was running out of money, 28 minutes and 54 secondsso I asked, um, a friend of mine, who I knew pretty well, um, 29 minutes and 0 secondsin the games industry, who I knew had done really well, 29 minutes and 3 secondsif I could, um... 29 minutes and 5 secondsborrow, 29 minutes and 7 secondsuh, the equivalent of one-- one payroll. 29 minutes and 10 secondsWhich was about $250,000. 29 minutes and 12 seconds"Quarter of a million dollars. 29 minutes and 14 secondsCan I borrow it? So I can make-- make it to when this wire is going to come in." 29 minutes and 17 secondsAnd, um, he was really generous, and he was like: 29 minutes and 21 seconds"Yeah. Yeah, sure. I looked into it, talked to my lawyer, 29 minutes and 22 secondsyou can-- yeah, you can just do it." 29 minutes and 24 secondsAnd I was: "We'll pay interest!" And he was like: "Yeah, yeah, whatever." 29 minutes and 27 secondsAnd then, I was like: "Okay, we are going to make it." 29 minutes and 29 secondsAnd I went back to the office. And that-- that publisher 29 minutes and 31 secondswho got our wiring information just stopped calling us. 29 minutes and 33 secondsJust-- just not answering our calls. Just disappeared. 29 minutes and 36 secondsAnd I was like: "Oh my god! 29 minutes and 38 secondsLike, I-- I personally owe this guy quarter of a million dollars." 29 minutes and 42 secondsLike, even though I could go bankrupt and not pay him back, 29 minutes and 45 secondsbecause he was, like, a friend of mine, I pretty much have to 29 minutes and 48 secondsfor the rest of my life pay him back until it was paid back. 29 minutes and 51 secondsUm, and I was just like: "Oh my god, I can't believe 29 minutes and 54 secondsI owe quarter of a million dollars to somebody, 29 minutes and 56 secondsand I'm going to just lose it all." 29 minutes and 57 seconds\[MUSIC\] 29 minutes and 59 secondsRUSTY: Yeah, and what a day that was. 30 minutes and 4 secondsI just remember... 30 minutes and 6 secondsTim called us all... 30 minutes and 8 secondsI think the meeting happened, like, just right there. 30 minutes and 10 secondsThat's where our old meeting space was. 30 minutes and 13 secondsAnd... we knew something was going on, 30 minutes and 16 secondsbecause Tim is not real good at hiding his emotions. 30 minutes and 19 secondsYou know, his voice can kind of tremble, and his lip kind of goes like this. 30 minutes and 22 secondsAnd so, we knew something bad was going to happen. 30 minutes and 25 secondsAnd I stood up in front of the company and, like, said: 30 minutes and 27 seconds"Wednesday is your last paycheck. 30 minutes and 30 secondsUh, we are out of money." 30 minutes and 32 secondsAnd then I just couldn't move my throat, and I just couldn't talk. 30 minutes and 35 secondsAnd no one could talk, and I just stood there, 30 minutes and 37 secondsand I heard, like, birds tweeting outside. 30 minutes and 39 secondsAnd we just stood there, like, for, like, I feel like 30 seconds or a minute. 30 minutes and 43 secondsJust standing. Just... 30 minutes and 45 seconds\[GASPS\] 30 minutes and 46 secondsUntil I could, like, say anything else. 30 minutes and 48 secondsAnd, um... 30 minutes and 50 secondsI was like: "You can use our computers to put your resumes together, 30 minutes and 52 secondsor, you know, you guys can stay working here for no money, 30 minutes and 55 secondsif you want to see if anything happens before the rent. 30 minutes and 57 seconds\[SIGHS\] 30 minutes and 58 secondsAnd, like, and then, I feel like-- 30 minutes and 59 secondsI don't know if it was right then, when I went back to my desk, 31 minutes and 1 secondor a little bit later that day. 31 minutes and 4 secondsUm... 31 minutes and 5 secondsBut I saw the message about Majesco. Majesco was interested. 31 minutes and 8 secondsAnd we flew out there, and just somehow made that happen, 31 minutes and 10 secondsand signed that deal, and saved the whole company. 31 minutes and 12 secondsAnd, um... 31 minutes and 14 secondsWe were able to pay that guy back, with interest, the money he had loaned us. 31 minutes and 17 secondsAnd, um... 31 minutes and 19 secondsAnd then the team was just like: "We gotta finish this game." 31 minutes and 21 secondsAnd everyone just threw themselves wholeheartedly 31 minutes and 24 secondsinto finishing the game and making it awesome. 31 minutes and 25 secondsKEE: Towards the end, we were really going at a very, very fast speed. 31 minutes and 29 secondsAnd we were trying to get things done, like, bugs done: 31 minutes and 31 seconds"Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam." 31 minutes and 32 secondsBecause, towards the end, like, 31 minutes and 34 secondswe all started going through all the levels. 31 minutes and 36 secondsRAY: There is a lot of detail in Psychonauts, 31 minutes and 38 secondsthat Tim really wanted, that at the time we were kind of like: 31 minutes and 41 seconds"Agh, dude, why-- it's like-- It's, like, two in the morning. 31 minutes and 43 secondsWhy are we hooking up this dialogue 31 minutes and 45 secondsthat three people are going to see, you know?" 31 minutes and 47 seconds\[MUSIC\] 31 minutes and 50 secondsTIM: We kind of misprioritized a lot of hard to find stuff in the game, 31 minutes and 54 secondsthat we put a lot of work into. 31 minutes and 55 secondsSo, there is a lot of little things you can stumble upon that, um... 31 minutes and 59 secondsobviously, it's, like, two weeks of someone's time. 32 minutes and 1 secondAnd you are like: "Wow, I didn't know that was in there!" 32 minutes and 2 seconds\[MUSIC\] 32 minutes and 4 secondsNIGHTMARES: (Why did you let us die?) 32 minutes and 7 secondsBut now, you realize 32 minutes and 9 secondsthose make Psychonauts special. 32 minutes and 12 secondsBut, you know, everyone mostly kept their cool. 32 minutes and 14 secondsAnd most of the team stuck together, 32 minutes and 16 secondsand we-- we got-- we got through it, uh, somehow. 32 minutes and 21 secondsRUSTY: I mean, people were sleeping under their desks. 32 minutes and 23 secondsI remember Bagel sleeping under his desk. 32 minutes and 26 secondsI mean, it was exhausting. 32 minutes and 28 secondsWe started sending out, or seeing these emails, like: 32 minutes and 31 seconds"Yeah, I just finished this level 32 minutes and 33 secondsand, uh, it was, like, actually fun." 32 minutes and 36 secondsI think we ourselves were the first to be surprised 32 minutes and 39 secondsthat some-- that this-- that any of this-- 32 minutes and 41 secondsthat any of our efforts really paid off. 32 minutes and 43 secondsAnd that was the first time I was like: "Wow! All together it's pretty amazing." 32 minutes and 48 seconds"Wow, okay. We really have a good game." 32 minutes and 51 secondsUh, but we did it. We finished the game. 32 minutes and 53 secondsTIM: So, here are... 32 minutes and 56 seconds...the things we need to talk about. 32 minutes and 59 secondsMostly, the fact that we are done! 33 minutes and 1 second\[CHEERING\] 33 minutes and 3 secondsTV HOST: And they pull it off. 33 minutes and 4 secondsDouble Fine Productions finally wraps up Psychonauts 33 minutes and 7 secondson February 26th, 2005. 33 minutes and 10 secondsBut, uh-- Uh, I'm not going to make a huge speech 33 minutes and 12 secondsbecause my hair is really puffy, and I'm on TV. 33 minutes and 15 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 33 minutes and 20 secondsThanks, everybody. A lot. I hope you are all feeling good. 33 minutes and 23 secondsSo, congratulations. That's it! 33 minutes and 26 seconds\[CLAPPING\] 33 minutes and 28 seconds\[MUSIC\] 33 minutes and 30 secondsIt's been like a roller coaster. 33 minutes and 31 secondsIt's been really great to see it turn into something 33 minutes and 34 secondsthat we really consider fun. 33 minutes and 41 secondsGEOFF: I think, largely, at the studio, 33 minutes and 42 secondsit was just sort of, like, a sigh of relief. 33 minutes and 44 secondsLike, once it went out the door. 33 minutes and 46 secondsUh, and you didn't have that-- 33 minutes and 48 secondsthat sort of long tail that you do nowadays. 33 minutes and 50 secondsWhere it's like: 33 minutes and 51 seconds"Okay, the game came out! Time to start making DLC for it." 33 minutes and 54 secondsAnd all that other stuff. It was sort of like: 33 minutes and 57 seconds"All right, it's-- It's getting pressed to a disk, you know?" 34 minutes and 1 secondWe are done, and that's it!" 34 minutes and 2 seconds\[GEOFF CHUCKLES\] 34 minutes and 3 secondsIt was like being released from-- 34 minutes and 5 secondsa prisoner coming back from war. 34 minutes and 6 secondsAnd you are like-- 34 minutes and 7 secondsYou don't know how to identify with outside people, 34 minutes and 9 secondsyou know, go to parties and stuff like that. 34 minutes and 11 secondsBecause you were just such a tight-knit group. 34 minutes and 12 secondsIt was pretty comforting actually. 34 minutes and 14 secondsDude, I gotta say though, I mean, when it was over, 34 minutes and 17 secondsI was-- I definitely didn't need to look at it all, after that. 34 minutes and 20 secondsAnd my mom was so excited. 34 minutes and 21 secondsWanted us to play her Psychonauts game to help her get through it a little bit. 34 minutes and 24 secondsAnd all of us sat in there, and Tim was playing it. 34 minutes and 27 secondsAnd it was so quiet. 34 minutes and 28 secondsBecause we were seeing so many bugs, and so many things, 34 minutes and 31 secondsand so many things we wanted to fix, so... 34 minutes and 32 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 34 minutes and 34 secondsMy mom is like: "Thanks for helping me out!" 34 minutes and 36 secondsAnd we are all... 34 minutes and 38 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 34 minutes and 39 secondsThe whole time. 34 minutes and 40 secondsUh, we were-- everybody was really happy the way it was received. 34 minutes and 43 secondsNAVARRO: ...and exploring the ins and outs of people's minds. 34 minutes and 45 secondsAll of which are just totally insane and fun to explore. 34 minutes and 48 secondsAnd you are just going to enjoy every minute of it. 34 minutes and 51 secondsBRAD: When we saw the reviews, we are like: "Yeah!" 34 minutes and 53 secondsYou know, like, the reviews were by and large pretty good. 34 minutes and 57 secondsAnd yeah, I think that it was... 35 minutes and 1 seconda bit disappointing that it sold as poorly as it did. 35 minutes and 5 seconds\[SIGHS\] 35 minutes and 7 secondsPAUL: What was the feeling? 35 minutes and 8 secondsI remember being really proud of it. 35 minutes and 10 secondsBut then thinking, like: "Why aren't more people buying it?" 35 minutes and 13 secondsAt the time, it just felt like: "Uh, I wonder why... 35 minutes and 16 secondsthis game didn't just take over the world? Because I worked so hard on it." 35 minutes and 19 secondsAnd I think the team took that really hard too 35 minutes and 20 secondsBecause they-- like I said, they put everything they had into it. 35 minutes and 23 secondsEven my own family. 35 minutes and 24 secondsThe style, you know, the faces and stuff, like: 35 minutes and 27 seconds"Oh, that looks weird!" 35 minutes and 28 secondsAnd I think a lot of people just might have said: 35 minutes and 31 seconds"Oh, that-- eh. 35 minutes and 32 secondsThat's just too odd looking for me." 35 minutes and 35 secondsIf it didn't sell... 35 minutes and 36 secondsI mean, I was not really expecting it... 35 minutes and 38 secondsto sell at all. 35 minutes and 39 secondsI mean, I wasn't expecting it to come out for a while there, so. 35 minutes and 42 secondsAnything was good to me, you know? 35 minutes and 44 secondsI was very-- I was very happy with the reception of it, so. 35 minutes and 47 secondsANNA: We'd gotten all these ridiculous awards like: 35 minutes and 49 seconds"Best game no one played." 35 minutes and 51 secondsUm, I don't know if Tim is going to like me saying this, but, like, he had a joke. 35 minutes and 55 secondsIt was like: "You should-- Anna, you should go tell them 35 minutes and 57 secondsthey are the nicest guy no one has slept with." 36 minutes and 0 secondsI was really frustrated, because it had sold okay. 36 minutes and 3 secondsOur numbers, they were telling us, like, 400,000 copies. 36 minutes and 6 secondsBut in the public they were saying it sold 100,000 copies. 36 minutes and 9 secondsAnd all anyone would talk about, was, like, 36 minutes and 12 secondshow it was, like, a poster child for a good game that didn't sell. 36 minutes and 15 secondsCan't we just talk about it being a good game? 36 minutes and 18 secondsInstead of, like, how much it sold? 36 minutes and 19 secondsSo, I-- I had a big chip on my shoulder for a long time. 36 minutes and 21 secondsBut, um... 36 minutes and 23 secondsI was really happy with the response that people who did play it had to it. 36 minutes and 27 secondsB- Mask: ...memories or that person's thought process. 36 minutes and 29 secondsoffering clues that say: 36 minutes and 30 seconds"Hey! There is a bit more going on here!" 36 minutes and 32 secondsOr maybe it's just weird. 36 minutes and 33 secondsSee this room? Okay, you can shrink down and go inside the board. 36 minutes and 36 secondsSee that window? 36 minutes and 38 secondsI think about this a lot. 36 minutes and 40 secondsANNA: You know, it continued-- 36 minutes and 42 secondsI guess it just had a weird-- it had a reputation. 36 minutes and 44 secondsAnd then, there must have been enough copies of it in the wild 36 minutes and 47 secondsthat people did check it out. 36 minutes and 49 secondsBut, I mean, I can't tell you how happy it makes me 36 minutes and 52 secondsthat people kept playing it. 36 minutes and 54 secondsFor sure, yeah. We didn't expect that at all. 36 minutes and 56 seconds\[MUSIC\] 36 minutes and 57 secondsRAY: But I think it's that story, uh... 37 minutes and 0 secondsand that world that I think people enjoyed more than anything. 37 minutes and 4 secondsLike, more than the platforming. 37 minutes and 6 secondsAnd, you know, it also... 37 minutes and 9 secondsin a lot of ways connects to, like, the-- 37 minutes and 12 secondsthe, like, you know, teen existence in all of us, you know. 37 minutes and 15 seconds\[MUSIC\] 37 minutes and 17 secondsPeople have found it, or they've heard about it. 37 minutes and 20 secondsAnd they are like: "Oh, yeah. I wanted to play that." 37 minutes and 22 secondsSo, they bought it, and then they've told people, 37 minutes and 24 secondsand they've told people. 37 minutes and 26 secondsIt's-- it holds up really well, and it's-- There aren't many games like it, you know? 37 minutes and 30 secondsWhich is-- which is really cool. 37 minutes and 32 secondsIt's nice that it's one of the games 37 minutes and 34 secondsthat people seem to have a really special fondness for, because... 37 minutes and 38 secondsI feel like it's a really good-natured game. 37 minutes and 40 secondsNo one in Psychonauts is, kind of, irredeemable. 37 minutes and 42 secondsThey are all-- When you go into their mind, 37 minutes and 44 secondsyou see they are just facing a lot of tough things. 37 minutes and 47 secondsAnd you fight-- you help them fight them, and help them kind of heal or... overcome. 37 minutes and 51 secondsAnd this gets them control. 37 minutes and 52 secondsSo, I feel like it's a-- it's a positive-spirited game. 37 minutes and 55 secondsAnd so, it's nice that people reacted to that. 37 minutes and 57 secondsI think, people just respond to all that stuff. 38 minutes and 1 secondAnd-- and-- And want to see it again. 38 minutes and 7 seconds\[MUSIC\] 38 minutes and 9 secondsHey, everyone! Welcome back to Inside Gaming Daily for Tuesday. 38 minutes and 11 secondsHow you all doing? 38 minutes and 12 secondsFirst up, headline. Let's get right to it. Notch wants to make Psychonauts 2! 38 minutes and 16 secondsTIM: I mean, in some ways, I-- I have to credit Notch for some of this. 38 minutes and 20 secondsWhen he started that, uh, process of tweeting at me, like: 38 minutes and 23 seconds"Hey, let's make this happen!" 38 minutes and 25 secondsIt did kind of, like... 38 minutes and 27 secondsspark this idea of, like: 38 minutes and 28 seconds"It could happen. You could do it. You could actually make it." 38 minutes and 31 secondsLike: "I thought we could never make it. But maybe we can make it!" 38 minutes and 33 secondsAnd... we went down the road with him a little bit 38 minutes and 36 secondslike it was going to happen, and it ended up not working out. 38 minutes and 39 secondsBut by that point, that part of my brain 38 minutes and 40 secondsthat thought it was a possibility that it could happen, was already awake. 38 minutes and 43 secondsIt was, like, already lumbering towards the finish line. 38 minutes and 45 secondsAnd I was like: "Oh, god." Now I've got this sense of, like: 38 minutes and 48 seconds"I gotta make this game, and it can't be stopped." 38 minutes and 50 secondsSeeing how excited also-- 38 minutes and 51 secondsNot just his tweet, but seeing how people reacted to it. 38 minutes and 54 secondsYou know, it's waking up to one of those phone messages like: 38 minutes and 56 seconds"You should look on Twitter." 38 minutes and 57 secondsAnd, like: "Wha-at? That's a lot of tweets." 39 minutes and 0 secondsAnd, um... 39 minutes and 1 secondJust seeing how excited people were at the thought that it might happen. 39 minutes and 4 secondsI was like: 39 minutes and 5 seconds"Maybe people do want this to happen. Maybe we-- it'd be worth doing." 39 minutes and 8 seconds\[MUSIC\] 39 minutes and 10 secondsI mean, I'd always be excited to work on another Psychonauts. 39 minutes and 13 secondsJust getting, like, that energy back. 39 minutes and 16 secondsAnd to go back to that world, to go back to those characters. 39 minutes and 19 secondsI would-- Yeah, I would-- 39 minutes and 20 secondsIt's exciting just to think about going back, and-- 39 minutes and 23 secondsand making that game again. 39 minutes and 24 secondsPAUL: Do you expect it to go smoother overall? 39 minutes and 27 seconds(Oh, god, yes.) 39 minutes and 28 seconds\[CHUCKLES\] 39 minutes and 29 secondsYeah, I'm too old for it to go the way it went the last time. 39 minutes and 33 secondsI mean, we kind of all made a pact with each other 39 minutes and 37 secondsthat that would not happen again. 39 minutes and 42 secondsHe just pointed to the UI. 39 minutes and 44 seconds\[LAUGHTER\] 39 minutes and 45 secondsHe said: "I found this thing." 39 minutes and 46 secondsKEE: The big challenge, really, going at this game again, 39 minutes and 50 secondsis to kind of retain that, like, 39 minutes and 51 secondsnaive optimism that we had from the beginning. 39 minutes and 55 secondsWhere we would say, like: "Yeah, let's do that!" 39 minutes and 57 secondsInstead of, like: "Uh, I don't know." 39 minutes and 59 secondsAnd, um, I think we are experienced enough to pull that off 40 minutes and 2 secondswithout completely destroying ourselves. 40 minutes and 4 secondsSo, um... 40 minutes and 6 secondsYeah, I have-- I have very high hopes for it, for sure. 40 minutes and 8 seconds\[MUSIC\] 40 minutes and 10 secondsTIM: Our animation style, I think, has changed a lot too. 40 minutes and 12 secondsRAY: Oh, yeah. It's gotten a lot better. 40 minutes and 13 secondsRAY: Yeah, I mean, Tim keeps saying-- 40 minutes and 16 secondsBecause, you know, he talked about doing a sequel. 40 minutes and 17 secondsAnd I just said: "I'm kind of terrified of doing this project again." 40 minutes and 22 secondsAnd not even because how difficult the first one was, but... 40 minutes and 25 secondsI think it's more just what expectations of people-- 40 minutes and 28 secondsthat people have. 40 minutes and 29 secondsUm, there is a lot of people with a lot of fond memories of-- of the game. 40 minutes and 33 secondsAnd, uh-- and they want to have those-- 40 minutes and 36 secondsThey want that again. 40 minutes and 39 secondsAnd that's very-- I think that's really hard to, um... 40 minutes and 42 seconds...give people. 40 minutes and 43 seconds"I really loved the first one, but they really shit the bed with this." 40 minutes and 46 secondsYou know, like-- because there will be. 40 minutes and 48 secondsAnd that's the thing is that-- 40 minutes and 50 secondsYou have a team that's going to be different 40 minutes and 51 secondsfrom the team that we had back then. 40 minutes and 53 secondsThey are going to have different personalities 40 minutes and 55 secondsand those personalities will be reflected in a different way. 40 minutes and 58 secondsJust because that's how it is. That's how-- 41 minutes and 0 secondsPeople make games, you know what I mean? 41 minutes and 2 secondsSo, the game is going to be different. 41 minutes and 4 secondsAnd for some people it's going to be different enough, 41 minutes and 6 secondswhere they are no longer-- 41 minutes and 7 secondsthey-- they don't connect with it in the same way. 41 minutes and 10 secondsAnd that's a bummer, but... 41 minutes and 12 secondsI think people-- 41 minutes and 14 secondsas long as everyone is okay that that's what's going to happen then-- 41 minutes and 17 secondsthen it's no problem. 41 minutes and 20 secondsTIM: "What if no one likes what I'm doing? Like, well, what is it-- 41 minutes and 23 secondsWho do I want to make like this, you know?" 41 minutes and 25 secondsI mean, for me, it would be, like, everyone who liked Psychonauts. 41 minutes and 28 secondsI would want them to like Psychonauts 2. I would not want to change that. 41 minutes and 31 secondsSo, um... 41 minutes and 33 secondsBut I feel as long as it's coming from the the same place, 41 minutes and 35 secondsand all of our intentions, 41 minutes and 37 secondsit will only be deepened by the fact that we have more life experiences 41 minutes and 40 secondsto draw from to make this game. 41 minutes and 42 secondsTIM: ...crazy production on that project. 41 minutes and 45 secondsUm, and for those of you who weren't here... 41 minutes and 47 secondsUh, no hard feelings. We don't hold it against you. 41 minutes and 51 secondsHopefully, you get a chance to work on a Psychonauts game in the near future. 41 minutes and 54 seconds\[CHEERING\] 41 minutes and 55 secondsMaybe! So, happy birthday! 41 minutes and 57 seconds\[MUSIC\] 42 minutes and 5 secondsHey, Ray! 42 minutes and 9 secondsTIM: Splitting in half. 42 minutes and 11 secondsThis is what we did with Broken Age. 42 minutes and 13 secondsThe sweet, sweet filling was right in the middle. 42 minutes and 17 secondsThis is actually what you do with a video game. 42 minutes and 18 secondsBecause you never-- you always want your filler to be in the middle. 42 minutes and 20 secondsNever on the end or the beginning. 42 minutes and 23 secondsSo, there you go. 42 minutes and 25 secondsHow to make video games. 42 minutes and 26 secondsIt's easier than you think. 42 minutes and 27 seconds\[MUSIC\] [MUSIC] Show transcript timestamps